[ That's not at all the impression he had of the situation, but Yuri doesn't see the point in arguing over which of them is right about Saya's thoughts and feelings. So, he shrugs. ]
Which brings me back to: what am I doing here?
You're so convinced that she'll want to know he's alive and that she... what, won't care that you didn't ask first before making sure? Go make sure.
I was hoping for someone who could gauge her reactions on how to broach the subject. [He pours another glass and sits back.] But its difficult. Saya's told me no one has shown the care for her Chevaliers before me, but...I don't know. There's a difference between being uncomfortable with them as a concept, and not understanding how important they are to her.
[He takes a long drink.]
Do I tell her now, and put the thoughts in her head he might be alive, and she had almost left him behind, running off into her own happiness, abandoning him yet again. You must know how her guilt is.
He's not a normal lover. He doesn't have the option to move on. If he's alive, she has to go to him, because she knows it was torture to not do so before. There is the bond of love, but there is also the bond of responsibility.
But until its possible to get Haji back, she will have to live with all those thoughts. And the fear that I'm wrong. That he really is dead.
And maybe he is dead. And it would destroy her to have hope only to find out he really is gone.
But then I could hide it. Keep it to myself until I can be sure. But if she finds out because of some nonsense in this place, would that also break her heart? Knowing I was keeping that secret?
If I could have Haji with me, frankly I don't think she'd care what I did. At least any amount of care she'd have, it would be nothing compared to having him back. There is a lot she'd forgive, and at least there is joy to counter the pain instead of her great allowance for love.
But I can't discount what this place does and then she'd have all the suffering of the telling her option, but also I kept it, without the Haji presence to counter.
But....
If you can't understand how important her Chevalier are to her, to not understand its not a question of 'want,' and simply 'willingness to believe'....
[ Eyebrows lifting again. That — sounds incredibly unfair to everyone else in Saya's life. (How many people has she even told about her chevaliers?) But he tries to keep in mind that he's hearing this from a third party, not the woman herself. Who knows how she actually phrased it, and how much pain she was feeling in the moment? ]
[ and boy he still does not agree that she'd necessarily be devastated by Haji being dead, she has so many mixed feelings about what she did to the people she made chevaliers, but that's
a whole different kettle of fish, and still not productive to argue about ]
I'll agree with you on this much: I'm not a 'proper gauge'. We've obviously had very different conversations with her about this subject, so we've got different ideas about what she'd want here —
— but the only one who can tell you what she wants for sure is Saya.
[Red Son is merely repeating what Saya told him. Remembered all the looks of shock and tears and fondness she would give him when he showed care and respect for Riku's gem. The gem had been vital for being able to help Saya, but he knew.]
[The gem had been Riku and Riku had been important to Saya. Someone worth respect. The gem had been necessary, but he was not an object to be used. Just another of her loved ones helping her reach something happier.]
[He knows to lose Haji twice would break her in a way he's not sure would heal anytime soon, and heal in a way where she wouldn't be the same.]
[He knows it because of how much his willingness to understand had meant to her.]
Gravity is an apt metaphor. [Because gravity goes both ways.]
But it is very clear we've had different conversations. I figured there would be some differences, but...I had hoped not that much.
You never phrase anything to a royal like you were going to do something whether or not they approved unless you're looking for a fight or you're in a place to make them bow to your will. [That's just Common Sense.] And she already knows about my ability to travel between dimensions. I already made the offer in the past for other people.
As soon as I say Haji is alive, she knows what I could do. As soon as she can think for more than two seconds rationally, she'd realize its on the table. [Now how SOON that rationally is going to come...]
That would be a good first step though, if I tell her. Try to make sure the wound isn't rubbed so raw.
[ Unfortunately, he's been doing the same thing: repeating what he's been told. They've just been told different things.
And — yeah, the very concept of taking a sentient person and making them a chevalier is fundamentally horrifying to him. It always will be. The fact that he knows Haji doesn't — can't — mind what was done to him... makes things worse rather than better. If he were Saya, reuniting with Haji wouldn't be the happy ending of a romcom but the start of a horror movie.
He's not Saya, though. ]
Does her being 'royalty' actually make a difference there?
[ He hopes not. ]
I mean, you're courting her, right?
[ Ideally not doing things "for" people against their wishes would be common sense whether or not they're royalty and whether or not you're dating them, but baby steps for the former(?) supervillain. ]
Some people are weak willed. [He shrugs.] Or like to be bossed around.
When you're royal, being told what to do with anything is grating without there being some kind of very clear permission involved. Its hard to explain, but Saya understands it. Its part of how we are with each other.
I am courting her, yes.
Now if you mean her being royalty making a difference for courting her? [A pause.] Yes and no. Being a Queen is apart of her and those traits are what attract me to her. But I don't require status to court her.
As proven by my other partner whose status is a mess at best.
...actually? Believe it or not? That's grating for everyone, even us peasants.
[ Babier baby steps deployed. ]
Even the people you think like being bossed around? [ Gentle emphasis that it's what you think they like. ] They've got limits: things they wouldn't enjoy being told to do, exactly the same way you and Saya don't like it.
[He raises an eyebrow at that.] There are definitely people who like being bossed around.
But everyone has their limits. Even the most browbeaten peasants will reach a breaking point and that's a failure of a leader who gets them to that point.
When you are meant to lead, however, you have to be able to do as you think is best, regardless of pressures. If you are easily swayed, it puts you and all those under you in peril. It takes quite a bit of trust to let someone tell you no.
I have no intention of making decisions for her. If this was not Haji, it would be far more straight forward.
If it was a lover, then they can move on if she doesn't come back. She would be able to decide while only considering what is best for her, because they don't require her. Haji does not have that.
Even in rejecting hope, she would likely feel guilt, like 'how dare she choose what's easier for her, what if he is alive, how could she be so selfish?' And her other dark thoughts.
There is no answer where there isn't a lot of pain. The not telling, have Haji is the least amount of pain, even if it might not be the 'right' choice, but getting there without something giving first is very risky.
Made more complicated in that she has expressed not wanting to remember things, she has asked I not tell her what is in the research journal of that man, so any hope her reaction is going to be some level of reasonable if I tell her at any point without Haji is going to be...
Well, frankly, I would probably ask Wukong to be there both to be emotional support because at least he does get most of this sort of thing and because he can pin her down so she doesn't do something incredibly stupid.
If you really trust her, then you'll tell her and let her make those choices.
[ Simply. Succinctly.
And, after a beat, ]
You'll also trust her to manage her own emotional reaction to it.
[ Who's Wukong, frankly, but he knows Saya connects with people fast and furious. Still seems like an oversight to invite him instead of her husband, but Yuri is choosing to hope Red wasn't sharing the full guest list there. ]
I'm treating her like someone whose spent centuries being the strongest being around learning that the last living member of what is, without question, hers may not be dead.
But he is beyond her reach.
And those in the way, despite her centuries of instincts, are not something she can or should kill for what's hers. Depending on if she wants to go for the power users or the darkness itself.
Then it's a matter of what's faster. Her flying or being able to calm down.
You just keep talking about how she can't handle this, can't handle that. How it's going to destroy her. How you're going to need someone else to hold her down.
I don't recommend that last one, by the way. She hates being restrained.
2/3 | one of those conversations made awk bc they've both killed her
She can handle most things. This thing? This is something that is a weak spot, a very clear, big weak spot. You don't blame a dryad for not being able to handle a forest fire. She doesn't expect me to be strong or immediately rational about my weak points and she is prepared when she decides to push them.
I won't expect her to hear this and 'manage her emotional reaction' because she is going to be drowning in her emotional reaction.
If you can't respect she is allowed to be weak in regards to this, then you are a terrible option to tell her.
[ Yuri's expression flickers, briefly insulted, before it becomes clear that Red's just... projecting. After all, when did he say anything about weakness being bad, much less unacceptable? When did he say Saya wasn't going to be upset? When did he even say she wasn't going to fall apart?
The realization drains his anger, leaving him tired. ]
She's like a tropical storm, always has been. It'll be terrible for a little while — and then it'll pass. She won't drown, and neither will you.
And it'll be a million times better than if you do all of this without telling her, because she takes betrayal pretty seriously.
[ which is what lying to an intimate partner is, just. fyi ]
['Manage her emotional reaction' implies some ability to not fly off the handle. Red Son knows there is no staying on that handle. Nor does he expect it.]
[That combined with Yuri's seeming lack of understanding how much Haji means paints a pretty poor picture of what Yuri gets about this situation.]
I am not worried about me. [Because he was never afraid of her. He was afraid what his lying could do TO HER even with the best of intentions. He could accept her anger. He didn't want her pain.]
It'll be a hurricane at minimum.
How is there a betrayal? [Sorry, gotta spell that out because he doesn't see it.]
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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Which brings me back to: what am I doing here?
You're so convinced that she'll want to know he's alive and that she... what, won't care that you didn't ask first before making sure? Go make sure.
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I was hoping for someone who could gauge her reactions on how to broach the subject. [He pours another glass and sits back.] But its difficult. Saya's told me no one has shown the care for her Chevaliers before me, but...I don't know. There's a difference between being uncomfortable with them as a concept, and not understanding how important they are to her.
[He takes a long drink.]
Do I tell her now, and put the thoughts in her head he might be alive, and she had almost left him behind, running off into her own happiness, abandoning him yet again. You must know how her guilt is.
He's not a normal lover. He doesn't have the option to move on. If he's alive, she has to go to him, because she knows it was torture to not do so before. There is the bond of love, but there is also the bond of responsibility.
But until its possible to get Haji back, she will have to live with all those thoughts. And the fear that I'm wrong. That he really is dead.
And maybe he is dead. And it would destroy her to have hope only to find out he really is gone.
But then I could hide it. Keep it to myself until I can be sure. But if she finds out because of some nonsense in this place, would that also break her heart? Knowing I was keeping that secret?
If I could have Haji with me, frankly I don't think she'd care what I did. At least any amount of care she'd have, it would be nothing compared to having him back. There is a lot she'd forgive, and at least there is joy to counter the pain instead of her great allowance for love.
But I can't discount what this place does and then she'd have all the suffering of the telling her option, but also I kept it, without the Haji presence to counter.
But....
If you can't understand how important her Chevalier are to her, to not understand its not a question of 'want,' and simply 'willingness to believe'....
Its not a proper gauge. [He downs the glass.]
1/?
2/?
[ It's not fun to remember, he didn't really want to talk about it, but this is the sticking point for Red, so. There you go. ]
3/?
a whole different kettle of fish, and still not productive to argue about ]
4/5
— but the only one who can tell you what she wants for sure is Saya.
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[ That might start an argument, or completely derail the conversation you were trying to have into one about the importance of autonomy and consent! ]
Maybe start by asking if she's in an okay place to talk about him?
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[The gem had been Riku and Riku had been important to Saya. Someone worth respect. The gem had been necessary, but he was not an object to be used. Just another of her loved ones helping her reach something happier.]
[He knows to lose Haji twice would break her in a way he's not sure would heal anytime soon, and heal in a way where she wouldn't be the same.]
[He knows it because of how much his willingness to understand had meant to her.]
Gravity is an apt metaphor. [Because gravity goes both ways.]
But it is very clear we've had different conversations. I figured there would be some differences, but...I had hoped not that much.
You never phrase anything to a royal like you were going to do something whether or not they approved unless you're looking for a fight or you're in a place to make them bow to your will. [That's just Common Sense.] And she already knows about my ability to travel between dimensions. I already made the offer in the past for other people.
As soon as I say Haji is alive, she knows what I could do. As soon as she can think for more than two seconds rationally, she'd realize its on the table. [Now how SOON that rationally is going to come...]
That would be a good first step though, if I tell her. Try to make sure the wound isn't rubbed so raw.
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And — yeah, the very concept of taking a sentient person and making them a chevalier is fundamentally horrifying to him. It always will be. The fact that he knows Haji doesn't — can't — mind what was done to him... makes things worse rather than better. If he were Saya, reuniting with Haji wouldn't be the happy ending of a romcom but the start of a horror movie.
He's not Saya, though. ]
Does her being 'royalty' actually make a difference there?
[ He hopes not. ]
I mean, you're courting her, right?
[ Ideally not doing things "for" people against their wishes would be common sense whether or not they're royalty and whether or not you're dating them, but baby steps for the former(?) supervillain. ]
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When you're royal, being told what to do with anything is grating without there being some kind of very clear permission involved. Its hard to explain, but Saya understands it. Its part of how we are with each other.
I am courting her, yes.
Now if you mean her being royalty making a difference for courting her? [A pause.] Yes and no. Being a Queen is apart of her and those traits are what attract me to her. But I don't require status to court her.
As proven by my other partner whose status is a mess at best.
However, status does not hurt.
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...actually? Believe it or not? That's grating for everyone, even us peasants.
[ Babier baby steps deployed. ]
Even the people you think like being bossed around? [ Gentle emphasis that it's what you think they like. ] They've got limits: things they wouldn't enjoy being told to do, exactly the same way you and Saya don't like it.
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But everyone has their limits. Even the most browbeaten peasants will reach a breaking point and that's a failure of a leader who gets them to that point.
When you are meant to lead, however, you have to be able to do as you think is best, regardless of pressures. If you are easily swayed, it puts you and all those under you in peril. It takes quite a bit of trust to let someone tell you no.
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Those sure are some things you just said.
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I trust Saya.
And she trusts me.
I have no intention of making decisions for her. If this was not Haji, it would be far more straight forward.
If it was a lover, then they can move on if she doesn't come back. She would be able to decide while only considering what is best for her, because they don't require her. Haji does not have that.
Even in rejecting hope, she would likely feel guilt, like 'how dare she choose what's easier for her, what if he is alive, how could she be so selfish?' And her other dark thoughts.
There is no answer where there isn't a lot of pain. The not telling, have Haji is the least amount of pain, even if it might not be the 'right' choice, but getting there without something giving first is very risky.
Made more complicated in that she has expressed not wanting to remember things, she has asked I not tell her what is in the research journal of that man, so any hope her reaction is going to be some level of reasonable if I tell her at any point without Haji is going to be...
Well, frankly, I would probably ask Wukong to be there both to be emotional support because at least he does get most of this sort of thing and because he can pin her down so she doesn't do something incredibly stupid.
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[ Simply. Succinctly.
And, after a beat, ]
You'll also trust her to manage her own emotional reaction to it.
[ Who's Wukong, frankly, but he knows Saya connects with people fast and furious. Still seems like an oversight to invite him instead of her husband, but Yuri is choosing to hope Red wasn't sharing the full guest list there. ]
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Stop treating her like a newborn baby made of nitroglycerin.
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But he is beyond her reach.
And those in the way, despite her centuries of instincts, are not something she can or should kill for what's hers. Depending on if she wants to go for the power users or the darkness itself.
Then it's a matter of what's faster. Her flying or being able to calm down.
1/2
I don't recommend that last one, by the way. She hates being restrained.
2/3 | one of those conversations made awk bc they've both killed her
[ Beat. ]
If you're worried she'll hurt herself, she'll heal.
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Or let me tell her. Maybe she should hear it from someone who isn't afraid of her.
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I won't expect her to hear this and 'manage her emotional reaction' because she is going to be drowning in her emotional reaction.
If you can't respect she is allowed to be weak in regards to this, then you are a terrible option to tell her.
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The realization drains his anger, leaving him tired. ]
She's like a tropical storm, always has been. It'll be terrible for a little while — and then it'll pass. She won't drown, and neither will you.
And it'll be a million times better than if you do all of this without telling her, because she takes betrayal pretty seriously.
[ which is what lying to an intimate partner is, just. fyi ]
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[That combined with Yuri's seeming lack of understanding how much Haji means paints a pretty poor picture of what Yuri gets about this situation.]
I am not worried about me. [Because he was never afraid of her. He was afraid what his lying could do TO HER even with the best of intentions. He could accept her anger. He didn't want her pain.]
It'll be a hurricane at minimum.
How is there a betrayal? [Sorry, gotta spell that out because he doesn't see it.]
1/2
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